Selkirk Transcript

Interview with Josephine (Jo) Selkirk, CN Office Stenographer

Date of Interview: October 23rd, 2001 in Prince George, BC

Interviewer: Shiloh Durkee
Transcriber: Shiloh Durkee

BEGIN SIDE ONE, TAPE ONE

J.Selkirk: Hello, Shiloh? Is it Shiloh?

S.Durkee: (laughing) Yup!

J.Selkirk: My name is Jo and welcome to our house!

S.Durkee: Thank you!  Today we’re at the home of Josephine, or Jo, Selkirk at 1530 Elm St. in Prince George and we’re going to be talking a bit about what it was like when she worked for the CN and some of the changes in the community of Prince George during her working years here.  So, first of all, I’ll just ask you if you can just tell me a bit about when you were born, where you born…

J.Selkirk: Well, I was born a number of years ago, I’m a senior citizen as you can tell and I was born in a little town called Sirdar. Now Sirdar is not too well known because it’s a very small community and in those early years, it was a very small community. But it’s about um, well about ten miles from Creston, British Columbia which is better known.  And actually Sirdar is right on the Kootenay Lake.

S.Durkee: And how do you spell Sirdar?

J.Selkirk: S.I.R.D.A.R

S.Durkee: And when was this that you were born if you don’t mind me asking?

(Clarification of question)

J.Selkirk: Well, I’m always a little reluctant to let people know the year of my birth. To me it’s a very personal thing. I feel that I have lived a number of years and have experienced a number of incidents in my life and I am now over sixty-five.

S.Durkee:  And when did you come to Prince George and what brought you here?

J.Selkirk: Well, Prince George…. my husband, actually it’s a long story cause Prince George was not my original home and so, when we came to Prince George in 1959…. (Long Pause)

S.Durkee: And did he have a job here? Were the job prospects here a lot more than…?

J.Selkirk: No, it was a transfer, a transfer with the company that he was with at the time.

S.Durkee: Okay. And so can you tell be about when you began working for the CN and what your actual job was?

J.Selkirk: Well, I…I think it was 19…you know (laughing) the years roll by and you just can’t keep track of the actual years. However, I believe it was about 1963 and I worked there for about a couple of years.

S.Durkee: And what was your actual job there?

J.Selkirk: Well, I…it was general stenographic because I…it was in a general office on the ticket…no it wasn’t the ticket…yeah it was…no it wasn’t the ticket office. It was the general office and I worked for the Transportation Superintendent and also for the…oh the General Manage; he… I can’t remember now the exact designation but it was… he was one of the important people who had a lot to do with the railway and he had a very important position.

S.Durkee: When you were hired, were there a lot of women working there as well?

J.Selkirk: Yes, there were as a matter of fact. It was…I would say that all the staff that I worked with were women and the males…. the head people were male but most of the staff, it was more or less an administration office so therefore there was an awful lot of stenographic work that needed to be done.

S.Durkee: Do you recall any women working elsewhere for the CN?

J.Selkirk: Yeah…let me see now. There were so many divisions in the railway…the railway is a very, very complex type of a business. All I can call it is a business because that’s the way it’s run. There’s the…we have the…the railways were right in front of our office there, well very close to it so therefore, a lot of the activity went on right around that area. But there’s so much to the railway…there’s the transportation, there’s the administration, there’s the communication which is so important in a railway. And other elements which I’m almost now, almost forgotten now I’m sorry.

S.Durkee: Oh no, that’s ok. How did you actually get this job?

J.Selkirk: What did I do to get this job? I was unemployed at the time and I wanted to get some sort of employment because my husband was on the road a lot. And well, it’s the type of work which I really enjoy anyway. [1] It was…there was a need for the job and I managed to be able to fill it. I guess that’s what we could say. I was there at the right time!

(Laughing)

S.Durkee: Was the railway a big part of Prince George back then? I know prior to that, the sawmills came in and whatnot…do you recall it (the CN) playing a big part in the employment here?

J.Selkirk: Oh absolutely because it employed so many people. The running crews…these are the people who are…who work on say, the engines and in those years there was a caboose and there was the…oh dear…there was the engineer and the conductor and that type of thing and also there was the passenger train that played an important part in those years also. [2]

S.Durkee: Was that in the 60s, the passenger train?

J.Selkirk: That would be…yeah that would be the 60s. Mind you, that train, there is a passenger service still in existence but I was thinking perhaps in my earlier years when the passenger trains really played an important part in the community because it was pretty well the main type of transportation.

S.Durkee: When did it cease to become do you remember?

J.Selkirk: Oh, it’s hard to say because of course the buses became popular, airline, air traffic became more popular and people became more aware of these facilities. And of course also, when you compare passenger traffic and air traffic, there’s really not much…you can’t compare it too well because of course the difference in prices and so on. But uh, bus traffic too, bus traffic became popular then too. And you also remember that people weren’t as mobile then as they are today. The type of work they did more or less allowed them to remain possibly more, more established in one area, one locality.

S.Durkee: As opposed to today where…

J.Selkirk: Yes…we’re living in a very mobile society and people’s jobs take them hither and yon so therefore there’s a need for greater transportation.

S.Durkee: If you were to describe your typical day at work, how would you do that? Time you started to the end…

J.Selkirk: Well…(laughing)…some days it was very placid, other days it was hectic. Very hectic. And there may have been a derailment perhaps on the railway and that, in that case then of course, people were really…it would be a type of activity which would require a lot of attention and so that would probably contribute to the hectic time of the…in that particular office. But I would say, it was just like many offices. I would say that many, many times, the work became routine except of course when there was a bit of an emergency then of course, it was very hectic.

S.Durkee: Do you recall any incidents in your mind when there was a derailment or some sort of an emergency?

J.Selkirk: Oh yes, a derailment could be caused by a train hitting a moose or maybe a car got stuck on the railway tracks or something like that. There could be a number of reasons really. And then of course there could be something go wrong, you don’t like to say it, but there could be something go wrong with the equipment. I shouldn’t say equipment because you can hardly categorize a train as equipment, but I’m thinking of say perhaps something went wrong with oh, part of an engine, part of a boxcar or a passenger car or something like that. You don’t like to think about it but these things do happen.

S.Durkee: ….in the office and when you first heard about [a derailment], what was your first thought?

J.Selkirk: Well you always wonder, “Has anybody been hurt? Are there any casualties?” This is the one thing that goes through your mind. And if an engine hits a moose, that has to be recorded. If there’s a car which was possibly, unfortunately on the tracks, then you hope and pray that there was nobody hurt. And there was a great amount of investigation which went on that would be held in the office of the Transportation Superintendent and all the record…it would be completely recorded by a stenographer who took shorthand and it was not, it wasn’t…the events were not recorded say on a tape recorder. It had to be more or less recorded by the stenographer who may have had to read back her notes on various occasions.

S.Durkee: That may have been something you had to have done?

J.Selkirk: I may have had to…yes, I may…I did once. Fortunately, of course, there were not too many derailments and accidents of that type.

S.Durkee: What would’ve been a typical shift? Time, start, end, how many days a week?

J.Selkirk: It was pretty well typical. We worked from 8:30 in the morning until 5:00 I think. The usual times for lunch say. And it may have been necessary for you to work a little bit of overtime or whatever but if the job required it, if you wanted to complete a job and it had to be done particularly on that day, then of course you would stay behind and finish the job. You just wouldn’t…just because the bell went, you wouldn’t run off and leave things as they were unfinished.

S.Durkee: Did you get overtime for that? Or was it just something you had to do?

J.Selkirk: I don’t recall that overtime was such an issue. I think it was a matter of commitment. You felt that the job had to be finished and you just stayed there until it was…if it required a completion by a certain time, you just…it was a matter…it was understood. You didn’t ask questions or anything (laughing). You just completed the job.

S.Durkee: Were your wages considered good wages back then?

J.Selkirk: Oh, I think so. I think the railway paid well for its secretary and staff. I can’t remember now how much I’ve made. But when I first started after graduating from business college, I got a job in a lawyer’s office and it paid thirty-five cents an hour. So uh…things since then have improved. But in those years of course, times were very, very hard. However, you’re not asking questions about those times…

S.Durkee: Oh I am! (Laughing) Feel free to tell me everything. I wasn’t there!

J.Selkirk: (Laughing) Oh dear…

S.Durkee: Were there benefit packages?

J.Selkirk: Yes, yes…absolutely. The railway always had…the benefits were always good with the railway.

(Jo couldn’t remember the details of the benefit packages except to say that she felt that they were good at that time for CN staff)

S.Durkee: I’m curious as to how you felt you felt in the workplace, if you were treated fairly, if it was a comfortable working area…if overall, it was positive for a woman?

J.Selkirk: Absolutely. My co-workers were always…you have…there was no distinction. There wasn’t just wasn’t any distinction. What it seemed to me as though you did your job, you were treated equally and perhaps there was some male chauvinism but it was never obvious. And all the fellas that I’ve ever worked with had the greatest…held me in pretty good esteem and I held them in very high esteem too because of the way that (pause)…you were just accepted as one of the guys.

S.Durkee: What’s your best memory of working for the railway?                       

J.Selkirk: Well, I loved the mobility. There was so much mobility. Trains were roaring by where I worked and you just felt as though nothing was standing still, you know. You never felt that time was standing still because there was always some sort of an activity going on. And I loved the all the hustle and bustle and ringing of bells and the motion of the wheels and all that type of thing.  And the whistles. You know, you hear a train whistle and it really does something to you. I loved the railway.

S.Durkee: What made you leave? You were only there for a couple of years…

J.Selkirk: (Pause) Can’t remember…Oh I do believe they were just cutting down on staff. That was it, they were going to be cutting down on staff. And so therefore, some of the positions were going to be eliminated.  And then I decided to…another job became open and so I decided well, that I might as well apply for it. It was understood that there would be some cutting down of staff and so that was the reason.

S.Durkee: Do you recall why they were cutting back?

J.Selkirk: No, I can’t recall. Most of the…possibly it was a case of reorganization. I think that was it. They were going to be doing some reorganization, which happens in many offices. Cost cutting and one thing or another.

S.Durkee: What was the “worst” aspect of working for the railway?

J.Selkirk: I can’t think of anything worse. I don’t know…I enjoyed my work. I really did, no matter wherever I have worked, it seems to me. With the exception of very, very few, I have found a great deal of enjoyment and satisfaction in my work. And my co-workers, there was always a good feeling of working together and that type of thing. Each person, each one of us did our jobs and that was it. I don’t know what I could say. The only thing perhaps would be if you ever heard of loss of life or anything of that nature, then of course that is always…you get the feeling of loss; particularly if that person is one of your co-workers who works along with you in some capacity. There would be tragedies out on the line and perhaps you wouldn’t be, they wouldn’t be intimate friends or close friends, but nevertheless you feel a loss.

S.Durkee: What was the ethnic diversity like back then? Were there certain ethnic groups working there (for the CN)?

J.Selkirk: Well, generally speaking, it would be the immigrants working on the section, which would be more or less part of maintaining the railway tracks and that type of thing. Normally the immigrants would possibly be qualified for that because they wouldn’t be too qualified for many other jobs at the time. So therefore, there would be a great immigrant group working on the…because it was very manual and very demanding and very hard because they had to work during winter where there was very rigorous conditions and handling steel and this type of thing would be very difficult. So therefore, it’d be quite demanding and a lot of the immigrants would be hired because they wouldn’t be too qualified. Their command of English wouldn’t be too great and so, but they could accomplish what was required of them. [3]

S.Durkee: Were there any particular groups that were from…?

J.Selkirk: Oh I would say there would be many from Europe.

S.Durkee: Would that have been the same throughout the industry here in  Prince George? Working in the sawmills?

J.Selkirk: Well, I’m not too conversant with the sawmill employment. Here again, as far as mills were concerned, I think you would have to be fairly qualified in some direction whereas, working on the track, you would have to be very, very careful of course of the aspect of danger. You know, you’d have to be very sure that you’d be out of the way should a train be coming along and make sure that you’re…because of the way they had all their tools and things…they had these handcars so therefore you want to make darn good and sure that that handcar was out of the way if there was a train coming (laughter).

S.Durkee: Now, you were working in Prince George but did you ever have a chance to visit those railway towns (from McBride to Prince Rupert?)

J.Selkirk: No, not in connection with my job. I have travelled on the train. I love train travel. To me, it’s just wonderful but I have travelled on the train but not as worker. Not in conjunction with my job, it would be just for personal purposes.

S.Durkee: What are some of the most significant changes you saw in the community when you first came to Prince George until up to today? What have been some of the biggest changes?

J.Selkirk: Oh, that’s a tall order. That is a very tall order.  We came in 1959. In those years of course, Central Street was the boundary it seemed to me. Beyond that, it was bush. And then gradually, it just seems to me as though the city just expanded and almost mushroomed because of the, the growth became so high or so uh…so intense. No, I shouldn’t say intense, that’s a pretty drastic word. But I would say that the lumber industry was at its highest and people were coming in. There were new houses that had to be built, new subdivisions established and all that the things that go along with that type of growth and development.  And of course there’d have to be schools to go along with the development cause people had families and there were really quite a number of schools which were already established and new houses would have to be developed. And of course the hospital. The hospital…it was about 19…I can’t remember…well, at one time, I believe they used an old barrack block for a hospital.

S.Durkee: A barrack block?

J.Selkirk: Well, the army was established here during war – this was before we arrived of course. Now please, don’t quote me on this because I’m not sure but I believe that there was a very small hospital which accommodated doctors, and nurses and patients and so on.  But then the hospital which now exists, was just coming into being at that time and I think it was 1964 or something like that that this new hospital was built. But of course you can get that information from the hospital itself when it was actually first established.

S.Durkee: ….it sounds like the railway had such a big part in Prince George being here. Do you recall when it [PG] went from being a “railway town” to a “lumber town” and how that affected employment here? (This question in reference to remarks made off tape about the term “sawmill town” being used to describe Prince George by both residents and visitors).

J.Selkirk: Well of course the railway was always needed because of transportation of the finished products. The trucking industry was not as developed in those early years. The railway seemed to do most of the business of transporting lumber and so on. I think the railway always played an important part in transporting the products which were which had been gone through the sawmills. No, I can’t say that there’d be such a (pause)….oh, I’ve forgotten the question you asked (laughing).

S.Durkee: I was just asking if you recall anything significant that said that Prince George went from being a “railway town” to a “lumber town”.

J.Selkirk: I don’t really feel that the lumber industry evolved out of the railway sort of thing. What I’m trying to convey to you is that the railway has always played an important part and that the two worked together. It was a matter of one industry depending on another. So I can’t see that there would such a, sort of a differentiation that you could say now that the railway’s not as important because we’ve got the lumber industry. That is not the case at all. The railway has always played an important part.

S.Durkee: Regardless.

J.Selkirk: Regardless.

S.Durkee: …as you move east along the line with Penny, Sinclair Mills and whatnot, they were very much what people envision as railway towns, and now that we’ve got trucking, have they cease to be?                                                                              

J.Selkirk: Well, yes but then that’s…I think that may possibly be because lumbering has…

END OF SIDE ONE, TAPE ONE, BEGIN SIDE TWO

(Unfortunately, some of Jo’s last sentence was lost going from Side 1 to Side 2, which explains the jump in subjects)

J.Selkirk: …the passenger trains and everything else. I have travelled across Canada where I came home on leave ‘cause I was stationed in Ottawa a couple times and you just…you’re in an entirely different world altogether because you’re…pause)… I have travelled both ways. I’ve travelled like first class with a sleeper and having to  be able to go into the dining room and oh the dining room was an experience in itself! White linen cloths in the former year and lovely silver and waiting on you waiters there and you know.  And lovely meals and everything else! And then I’ve had, I’ve also travelled brown-bagging when you slept on those hard seats and everybody would share their…(laughing).  I remember Christmas time we’d always go back with a whole boxful of turkey sandwiches you know and most of the guys are in their uniform, lots of them; they probably had turkey sandwiches too. But we’d sort of, you know, we’d say well, “Would you like a turkey sandwich?” or “would you like some Christmas cake” you know, that type of thing. It was always that way and so brown bagging it really with no class whatsoever (laughing). [4]

S.Durkee: Well, you know, that’s something you couldn’t do on an airplane or do in a car!

J.Selkirk: No! (Laughing) And of course you go into this when you have a berth…oh those berths are so wonderful! I don’t think I’ve ever slept in such wonderful sheets. The sheets are just so crisp; they’re just so crisp! Oh… You must, have you ever travelled by train? [5]

(Brief discussion of my one trip by train).

J.Selkirk: I’m not too familiar now with what goes on because it’s a very short journey in comparison say travelling from Winnipeg or Toronto, or Ottawa or something like that because, you know, it takes so much longer to begin with.  But now I think they have cafeteria cars where you can get sandwiches and coffee and stuff like that which is good. (A pause while she reflected on her travels). It’s so uncomfortable, sitting up all night trying to find a place that’s a comfortable!

(Laughing)

S.Durkee: You can’t! You just go from uncomfortable to more uncomfortable!

J.Selkirk: That’s about the size of it! But it’s…oh dear. You’re always so glad when you get off that train and you can go home, have a bath and yeah, anyway.

S.Durkee: It sounds like this then, that that was a positive time in your life and that it was good career. Did you find that working for the CN, did you gain any skills that helped you on in later life?

J.Selkirk: I think every job you undertake is an experience and you learn something from every job that you undertake. It’s just like you and this interviewing thing. You know, that’s not going to be your life work probably and it may, you never know. It may be a stepping-stone to something that’s going to or affect the rest of your life. But um, the people you meet, the contacts that you’ve made, and the type of work, and your bosses, the people who you work with or for and so on; they all…I can almost visualize my bosses that I’ve always worked for. I must say that I’ve always enjoyed my work as far as you know, the contact with people; they’ve always treated you in such a way that you can’t forget it. It’s left an impression on you and it’s been a part of your life because you’ve been there for eight hours of everyday of your life.

(Pause)

S.Durkee: Great. Well, do you feel like there’s anything else you’d like to add or a topic we haven’t discussed?

J.Selkirk: I don’t know because I’m not quite sure, whether you want to go into…I think we’ve covered some territory. Instead of A-Z, probably we’ve gone to A-L (laughing). We’ve covered some new territory!

S.Durkee: There you go! Well, it’s nice to get a different view. It’s funny because I end my interviews by asking whether you prefer to travel by train or by car but I think you’ve almost…

J.Selkirk: Oh I love the train, I really do. I just think it’s such an experience you know. I travelled a good many years ago when they had the um, black porters. All the porters seemed to be black and now, the last journey I took on the train, there was a white porter who was young. Because they have the sleeping car porters, they just handle the sleeping cars where all the berths are, upper and lower and stuff like that. I was quite surprised to see a white porter. But uh…it isn’t as though you’d look down on them because they were black; it’s just that was the type of job that black porters were able to do so well and they were always so courteous and so accommodating and so uh...(pause).

S.Durkee: You noticed that from when you first started travelling by train up until your last trip?

J.Selkirk: Yeah, it was a white porter. But it may be it was because those jobs were considered, I don’t know, menial?  Not menial exactly but um, they were categorized and they were categorized that if you had a position on the…if you needed someone to fill the position of a sleeping car conductor or porter rather, they would look for a black person. Or a black person would possibly feel comfortable about applying for that type of job. I don’t really know why. And I think it’s because in the earlier years, black people were looked down on you know, looked down upon because they were just doing the menial jobs and stuff like this and yet they were so competent and so obliging and very good workers. So who knows? It was an era. (Clarification of last comment on tape). Yeah, everything seems to kind of go in eras doesn’t it? [6]

S.Durkee: Very much.

 Well, we have now done A-L; maybe one day we’ll do M-Z! But that concludes our interview at Jo Selkirk’s house so thank you!

END OF INTERVIEW

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